more Les Mis spam

[elsane]

I'm reading Les Miserables (very slowly). I've read excerpts from it before, usually in watered-down French -- my high school French teacher was notable for migraines, scattershot lesson planning, and deep, disorganized passions for Hugo and Impressionists -- but I've never tackled the whole thing. It's great fun though I haven't hit the parts with Marius yet. I have the itch to live-blog every other page and argue back at Hugo, which I have been heroically repressing.

Here, have a fic rec: Dolce et decorum est, featuring Les Amis in Temeraire!verse. Enjolras is captain to the dragon Patria, deadly earnest human and draconine republicanism abounds, and so does gleeful gender confusion. Clever, cracky, and fun.

And another one: With Faith Unfearful, by carmarthen. It's not very easy to write believable ship fic for Enjolras and Grantaire and stay true to their canon dynamic, but this works beautifully well, partly by not being the sort of thing one would ordinarily call ship fic.

Something about Enjolras lends itself to genderfuck remarkably easily, and I think I know why. Enjolras is one of the Les Mis characters who's halfway to being a symbol, and symbolic embodiments of abstract virtues are female in Western thought. Think of Liberty, leading the people, and Marianne; the Virtues, the Graces. Enjolras is written to be the embodiment of the revolutionary spirit, and his appearance, his demeanor, all hark back to those feminine abstract archetypes. He was gender-bent from the beginning; no wonder he bends back so easily.

More links: today I was amused to note that as part of the New York Times' ongoing "Disunion" Civil War history project, posted today was an article about how Les Miserables, hot off the presses, was received in the US. Not much has changed: "The New York Times called the novel 'remarkable' and 'brilliant, but in the same notice labeled Hugo 'a prosy madman.'" It's fascinating to read reviews from the Southern side and see the doublethink involved, as Hugo and his messages were fairly obviously abolitionist; this is only briefly touched on in the article, and it would be interesting to read more.

So the thing about writing people who started out as Enjolras (this overly punctilious approach to naming brought to you by the fact that I know full well my people are mutating away from Hugo's bases), is that you realize they really aren't going to live very long, even when you try to give them a nice victory to start out with.

In other words, April 1960 is more like 1830, and 1832 is still coming.

But there gets to be some Orestes and Pylades first, and more than two years, so the story is that much different.

...in other news. Uh. So, does anyone want to watch Sandglass with me?

Comments

[skygiants]

I have the itch to live-blog every other page and argue back at Hugo, which I have been heroically repressing.

BUT WHY REPRESS. . . . I mean . . . . >.>

Also, man, I have been wanting to watch Sandglass for ages! I was actually hoping I could watch and talk about it for my TV history class last semester, but it turned out to be overwhelmingly US-focused so I never got the chance.

[elsane]

Spam and time, that's why! It would get boring very fast, as I have not the gift of unerring snark, and long careful arguments about moral atheism would keep me up half the night.

♥___♥ let us do this thing. only not right this moment because I am horridly busy and shouldn't be on the Internet as much as I am

[skygiants]

I mean, valid and fair but some of us are interested in long careful arguments about moral atheism . . .

YES LET'S DO THIS THING . . . . slowly. In between mountains of academic work. :D? *HIGH FIVES*

[elsane]

I can write bits of fiction or I can read books or I can liveblog Hugo and take a whole year to read the Brick. SAD BUT TRUE. I make myself feel better by pretending that after I get tenure I am going to write a big massive novel that is a post-colonialist, post-communist, atheist/Buddhist, feminist reply to Hugo. hahaHA. (edit: I feel obliged to say that I mostly want to write it because (1) CHARACTERS OMG and (2) REVOLUTION OMG.)

:D! It is a (hopefully soon not hypothetical) date! *HIGH FIVES*

[skygiants]

I mean, I can't argue with anything that will mean I might get the GREATEST POST-COLONIALIST POST-COMMUNIST ATHIEST/BUDDHIST FEMINIST REPLY TO HUGO EVER at the end of it! :D

[oyceter]

Ooooo I have been wanting to watch Sandglass for forever! I think I've seen the first episode three times or so. But um yes totally with you on the not quite right now kinda busy bit.

[elsane]

Oh, fantastic! This should be fun. when we're allowed to have fun again, ha ha ugh.

It will probably be hard to coordinate four+ busy people episode by episode, but it seems like we should have a good critical mass for discussion and or capslocking :)

[shati]

I am intrigued by Sandglass! (Perhaps inevitably. >.>) But not overwhelmingly so, if I would be complicating scheduling.

[elsane]

YES YES JOIN USSSSS. (And don't worry about scheduling, I complicate scheduling all by myself.)

[carmarthen]

Aw, thanks for the rec. partly by not being the sort of thing one would ordinarily call ship fic. I cannot actually write ship fic for them, heh, hence why this is not.

(Also, I want ALL THE THOUGHTS about moral atheism. I suspect Hugo and I are going to disagree on almost everything moral and ethical, really, much as I love his writing and characters.)

[elsane]

It is my pleasure -- thank you for the fic! And I didn't really want to spoil it, which is why I didn't say what else makes it notable.

(Apparently the only way I can write ship fic for them is by mutating them to be different people in an entirely different time and place, so.)

And you are another enabler :) Hugo is fascinating to read, because I find him dreadfully sympathetic and engaging, in ways other classic authors are not (hello Dickens, I am looking at you), and at the same time I want to either snark or argue with him after every paragraph. Perhaps it's just that one gets the sense that Hugo loves arguments.

[carmarthen]

(Apparently the only way I can write ship fic for them is by mutating them to be different people in an entirely different time and place, so.)

I haven't decided yet if I can do that, but if I ever figure out how to write an ancient Roman Amis AU I shall find out!

Hugo is fascinating to read, because I find him dreadfully sympathetic and engaging, in ways other classic authors are not (hello Dickens, I am looking at you), and at the same time I want to either snark or argue with him after every paragraph. Perhaps it's just that one gets the sense that Hugo loves arguments.

Hah, yes, something like that.

[elsane]

Oh my goodness, an ancient roman Amis AU. /heartsineyes Though republican revolutions don't get much more historically doomed than that, depending on when exactly you set them.

It's quite easy to do as long as you acknowledge you're writing different characters, heh. I don't honestly see how to do anything beyond what Hugo did with them, if you take them as his, as the storyline is such a taut illustration of impossibility that only the last tragedy can resolve it. But if you should, oh, say, happen to find yourself wanting to argue with Hugo about belief, skepticism, faith as it does not revolve around the divine, it's pretty easy to stumble sideways and get socked in the gut by something you hadn't quite intended to do...

[carmarthen]

My general ambivalence about AUs is that for them to work for me as fanfiction rather than original fiction, they have to preserve what I see as the core of the characters. But a lot of what makes people is bound up in their social and historical context, so it's this trick of deciding "What is the core here?" And that will be different for everyone. A lot of modern AUs especially don't work for me because all I can see in common is names (and also my interest in college AUs is very very minimal--at least as they're usually written. I don't think I've read more than one or two college AUs in any fandom that captured what was exciting and amazing and mind-blowing for ME about college). And I think a lot of people write modern AUs for reasons unlikely to produce what I personally look for in fic.

The funny thing is that I love canon-era and canon-divergence AUs a lot, and have much less trouble writing those, maybe because although they're still shaped differently, at least they're being shaped by the same setting, so it's not as big a step to take.

[elsane]

Oh, I see what you're saying! Really well-done AUs, where the author carefully considers how the characters as people would grow up in a different time and place, are among my favoritest things in the world, but, as you say, for them to work you need to agree with the author about characterization choices (before you even get to the question of imagination and talent), and good ones are rare.

(Tangentially, this is part of why Saiyuki is such catnip to me: it has what amounts to a canon AU, with previous incarnations of the main characters who are recognizably themselves as well as being very different, and much less damaged people. It's a stunning feat of characterization by a master, and I eat it up with a spoon.)

My latest obsession started out as a thought experiment: how would I translate Les Amis into 1960 Korea, with E and R genderbent? But I quickly realized I wanted a different character arc for she-who-started-out-as-R than Hugo took, so I'm really not writing fic anymore, and know it.

To make new-place AUs work for me there has to be a reason for the choice of the setting -- does it illuminate something particular for the characters, mostly. Modern college Amis AUs fail pretty badly on this front, for me, even before one starts asking about the author's approach to any individual characters.

I also adore divergence AUs; I don't quite understand why they are so much rarer, in comparison.

[carmarthen]

but, as you say, for them to work you need to agree with the author about characterization choices

Granted, I feel the same way about canon-era stuff? There's a range of characterization I can buy for any given canon, outside of which it reads to me like original fiction with the same names, which is why I am much more willing to read AUs for canons I don't know. But I think with modern AUs particularly, they are sometimes a crutch for writers who find the canon setting too "hard," and so are more often written by newer or lazier writers, maybe (not ALWAYS, obviously, but I think maybe it's more common, at least for historical or SFF canons with a lot of history or worldbuilding in the setting).

My latest obsession started out as a thought experiment: how would I translate Les Amis into 1960 Korea, with E and R genderbent? But I quickly realized I wanted a different character arc for she-who-started-out-as-R than Hugo took, so I'm really not writing fic anymore, and know it.

It sounds fascinating, though!

To make new-place AUs work for me there has to be a reason for the choice of the setting -- does it illuminate something particular for the characters, mostly. Modern college Amis AUs fail pretty badly on this front, for me, even before one starts asking about the author's approach to any individual characters.

I also adore divergence AUs; I don't quite understand why they are so much rarer, in comparison.

Likewise on college Amis AUs. :-/ I think a lot of people map them because they think "oooh, college activists," but I'm not sure I can get from violent 19th century revolution to Occupy Wall Street, personally. But I think a lot of people are writing those AUs for reasons that have nothing to do with illuminating things about the characters and everything to do with shipping and/or porn. *shrug*

Divergence AUs are my very favorite. I have one fandom (Tortall) where divergence AUs fairly common, and curiously, despite being a young-skewing canon, there's very little in the way of changed-setting AUs, but maybe that's because it's fantasy and the people drawn to it are drawn to having knights and mages and magical creatures. But in other canons, not so much.

[elsane]

Heh, yes, just having something be canon setting really isn't a guarantee it will be in character. It seems to help mitigate iffy characterization a little bit, though? Maybe just by providing a bit of camouflage, but at the very least it's trying to meet the characters halfway, by putting them into a setting that isn't your everyday life. Modern AUs of the student/coffee-shop kind don't even manage that.

(It sounds fascinating, though! Aw, you are kind :) I do hope it does wind up being interesting to anyone who isn't me, heh. Poking at it leaves me with the sense of having my nose rubbed in the fact that Hugo is a better writer than I am, which is kind of obvious and not helpful.)

I think a lot of people map them because they think "oooh, college activists," but I'm not sure I can get from violent 19th century revolution to Occupy Wall Street, personally.

Yeah, there is a certain gravity of purpose which doesn't map well, and it ends up diminishing the characters, almost invariably. I have discovered that apparently my ship in this fandom is Les Amis/democratic revolution.

I think I have read and very much enjoyed some of those Tortall divergence AUs! And yes, no changed-setting AUs at all. (perhaps because Tortall is fairly lightly sketched in? So It's not hard for inexperienced world builders to play in?) It's interesting how different fandoms lend themselves to different kinds of AU. Saiyuki has almost no divergence AUs, probably because the major ongoing plot is so open in structure, but tons and tons of reincarnation/different setting AUs.

[carmarthen]

Maybe just by providing a bit of camouflage, but at the very least it's trying to meet the characters halfway, by putting them into a setting that isn't your everyday life. Modern AUs of the student/coffee-shop kind don't even manage that.

*nods*

I think Hugo is a better writer than just about everyone, and we all just have to cope.

Yeah, there is a certain gravity of purpose which doesn't map well, and it ends up diminishing the characters, almost invariably. I have discovered that apparently my ship in this fandom is Les Amis/democratic revolution.

Which is not to say I think social issues today aren't important, but...well, here's some really good meta on Tumblr that explains it better than I can.

perhaps because Tortall is fairly lightly sketched in? So It's not hard for inexperienced world builders to play in?

I think that may be part of it--plus canon is pretty contradictory, so we can make shit up with more impunity. But I do think the lack of a visual interpretation full of pretty actors is a big part of it--Aubrey & Maturin fandom is relatively free of crappy modern AUs as well, I think because the movie wasn't popular enough to overwhelm the book fans who looooove Age of Sail. Whereas I'd say Les Miz only grew a ton of modern AUs after the 2012 movie, and they're almost all focused on pretty boys sexing. I do not think this is a coincidence.

[elsane]

Oh, that's great meta -- thanks for the link! (I am somewhat dismayed by how much interesting Les Mis content seems to be on Tumblr.) Though I disagree that the violence is intrinsic; the wholehearted commitment to something that could cost your life is, but I don't think that this necessarily implies a commitment to perpetrating violence. The AUs I want are mostly historic:
* Solidarnosc
* Tiananmen Square
* Russian revolution -- but -- only if the writer really, really knows what they're doing, and kept Les Amis on the side of democracy and freedom, and this one would still get dark very fast.
* I would absolutely love to see other, present-day AUs from places around the world still fighting for self-determination today, like Iran or Tunisia or Myanmar or..., but there is no way I can even start to think about what that would be like.

I also want divergence AUs! Like one where the Amis aren't shot when the barricade is taken, which was after all a bit of an aberration, but are rounded up as political prisoners... but unlike other fandoms brainstorming more elaborate ideas tends to turn into straight-up alternate history very fast, and is daunting, heh.

But I do think the lack of a visual interpretation full of pretty actors is a big part of it-...Les Miz only grew a ton of modern AUs after the 2012 movie, and they're almost all focused on pretty boys sexing. I do not think this is a coincidence.

Ah. Yes. Excellent point.

(I am now trying to imagine an Alanna movie and getting my brain very blown.)

I'm even a bit guilty of this myself, as movie gif-sets and cherry-picked quotes made me think that E/R was something fun to poke at and got me going down this road, but, no, now that I've been digging deeper I basically want ALL THE GEN, WITH PHILOSOPHY IN. /nerd

[carmarthen]

I am somewhat dismayed by how much interesting Les Mis content seems to be on Tumblr.

Join the club. :-/ I have broken and actually started using Tumblr because of it, bleh. Anyway, I think if you just follow hernaniste, hoflords, and axmxz you've probably got a good chunk of the meta covered (general more scholarly Hugo meta hernaniste, the Javert show for the other two), although if you're interested in Amis, you might want to follow someone who talks about them in contexts other than who bottoms (I can't think offhand of who would be the best bet who doesn't constantly repost gifs and fanart).

I might try doing some kind of weekly Tumblr meta roundup, I dunno.

Agreed on the not necessarily committing violence. I would also like to see all those AUs, but I think they're hugely fraught to write, especially for people not from the countries and cultures whose history they are--especially the more recent stuff. 1832 is far enough in the past that I think fucking it up, while still potentially offensive, is less likely to hit raw wounds (I may be wrong, though).

I also want divergence AUs! Like one where the Amis aren't shot when the barricade is taken, which was after all a bit of an aberration, but are rounded up as political prisoners... but unlike other fandoms brainstorming more elaborate ideas tends to turn into straight-up alternate history very fast, and is daunting, heh.

Yeah, it really does. I am contemplating a divergence AU right now, but what started out as a simple idea is growing tentacles (not in the kinkmeme way) and IDEK.

(I am now trying to imagine an Alanna movie and getting my brain very blown.)

People keep doing fancasting, and I just...can't. I can't imagine Hollywood not completely fucking it up.

There is nothing wrong with shipping the pretty boys sexing (or in my case, the fucked up old dudes sexing, I guess)! But gosh, I do love me some philosophizing and history.

(My last fandom was a book/movie fandom, and I was one of the handful of fans who heavily overlapped the two. The book fandom had almost NO modern AUs, and was full of people who loved history. The movie fandom was full of modern AUs and was full of people who loved the actors and didn't have much interest in the historical setting or how it might shape the characters. A lot of the modern AUs were thinly veiled RPF or based on other roles of the actors. It was...contentious. At least Miz fandom mostly seems to get along better, although sometimes I think the Amis-centric part will eat its young. At least it's not full--so far--of people bitching about how history is boring and stupid and oppressive, so I am counting my blessings.)

[elsane]

so, I made a Tumblr (berrysphase is me). So far things have gone pretty well, in terms of getting the content and not the wank? Despite being in the Amis part of the fandom, and despite Tumblr making me feel remarkably like a mammoth fumbling around in the dark. Stupid non-obvious platforms. I haven't really hit Javert in the brick yet! I expect once I do so I will have suddenly more emphatic feelings for him, but so far I am all about the revolutionaries, predictably enough.

I would love to see the weekly Tumblr meta roundup.

Oh, I would love to hear more about your divergence AU /heartsineyes I'm sorry I'm not really one for crackfic, occasional diversions into mpreg aside /cough

Re Alanna, I agree, I can't imagine Hollywood's take on her, or Delia, or Buri and Thayet, except in the "train wreck waiting to happen" kind of way. I mean, I know, Pierce's story has all sorts of issues, but at least they are not the obvious ones?

[carmarthen]

I think the more meta-y canon-era part of Amis fandom is pretty non-wanky, although also kind of tight-knit and intimidating. If you're not following them yet, edwarddespard and amarguerite are both interesting.

Eh, I really only like crack-played-straight, like silly ideas but written out seriously? And fusion AUs. Which I guess is not what most people think of as crack, I dunno, but either way not to everyone's taste.

(I am not sure I want to talk about the divergence AU because I'm afraid if I do I won't write it, but the basic idea is that Eponine goes with Valjean and Cosette to England, Marius has a crisis of conscience on the barricade, and nobody dies, but this doesn't necessarily make everyone happy.)

I agree, I can't imagine Hollywood's take on her, or Delia, or Buri and Thayet, except in the "train wreck waiting to happen" kind of way. I mean, I know, Pierce's story has all sorts of issues, but at least they are not the obvious ones?

Right? I think I'm glad it's terribly unlikely to happen.